Curse

quickmonty · Sep 13, 2005, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactical-Dillusions

Another nerf the monk thread.

My thoughts exactly.

IxChel · Sep 13, 2005, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silmor

This isn't a "nerf the monk" or "monks are overpowered" thread.
This is a "give clear directions to attribute lines" thread,
attempting to address the issue of the hotchpotch that
is Smiting Prayers.

Many suggestions on both smiting and on ER have been to balance power
between classes. At this time, the smiting line could use a "buff" to
be a better "don't attack this person" deterrent (Holy Wrath, for example
is a junk spell, when it could be so much better); and the fire line could
use a "buff" to do more damage. I'd like to see the smiting line more
conditional upon the opposing team trying to do damage; and I'd like
to see spells like firestorm have about 1/3 more duration.

To illustrate my point -- in PvE, I'd like to see those irritating plant things
be really dangerous to attack. The best they can do right now is a
random pacivism or a holy wrath (very limited due to the high energy
draw of that skill). Those buggers should be absolutely harmless if you
just ignore them, but when you go to attack -- it should clean people's
clocks. It should be serious deterrance; holy wrath needs a serious buff.
Those creatures should have colorful feathers and all sorts of "remember
me, I'm a pain" sorts of mementos.

At the same time, ER and smiting (Zealots and Balthazar's) are
over-powered. Zealots and Balthazar's make better attack skills than
they do as "deterrents". I see the smiting line much like the poster
above said -- porcupine skills. You don't see a porcupine using his
spikes to charge into battle!

I've started a thread in the sanitarium for concrete skill change suggestions along this theme.

FrogDevourer · Sep 13, 2005, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Generally speaking, smiting is not that overpowered. Most smiting skills are even weak, if not useless. Duplicating the conditional "porcupine" aspect of Shield of Judgement or Retribution is a good idea. However I'm not sure you can base a whole attribute on this philosophy. Such "pay to attack" skills would be very similar to Empathy-like hexes.

If primary monks are arguably the best farmers, it's mostly due to two popular skills: BA & ZF. Monks are very powerful unconditional AoE damage dealers thanks to 2 skills. Other smiting skills are quite useful (Balt Spirit, SoJ...), but you can easily replace them by something else. However if you remove BA & ZF, you can say goodbye to a mono-monk farmer.

In terms of damage, I think Balthazar's Aura is fine (now that 2 auras no longer stack), because once you remove the infinite energy engine, it is a good skill for damage per second & damage per energy. It also ignores armor which is priceless. In my opinion, the core of the problem is that similar skills from elementalists really are close to worthless (*cough* Searing Heat *cough*).

However, Zealot's Fire is indeed overpowered. You can deal more unconditional damage with this skill than you would with most if not all elementalist skills. The short recharge and low cost make it the best alternative to deal AoE fire damage. An example ? For 15e and 3s, you can use 3 monk spells, deal AoE 120 fire damage, and most importantly get tasty side effects from your monk skills. With the same 15e and 3s, you can do more or less the same amount of damage with fire skills, then you're screwed with stupid recharge times or exhaustion. Yay! Go, go, elementalist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

now that ER will not be nerfed

Oh, really? Guess why we're no longer discussing over ER?

Last time I heard from Alex Weekes, ER was 'examined for balance testing'. FYI, the same was said for weeks about Nature's Renewal.

Silmor · Sep 13, 2005, 07:33 PM // 19:33

I was under the impression this wasn't a 'nerf' thread because what you appeared to be suggesting was to adjust the nature of a skill, not tone down the overall power it held. I agree about the fire line needing some love (but as far as PvP is concerned, lengthening fire storm duration isn't going to help with that outside of altar situations), and there's some currently underplayed smiting skills such as Holy Wrath as you mentioned, but then again, there's just a whole lot of skills out there that currently don't see any play that could be given attention, and the elementalist class should come before the monk class at this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IxChel

To illustrate my point -- in PvE, I'd like to see those irritating plant things
be really dangerous to attack.

They're irritating enough as it is actually, Holy Wrath is basically what makes them slightly easier to kill. The problem is when they're teamed with other creatures such as Moss Scarabs or Jungle Trolls, you can't just ignore them. I personally loathe having to kill a pack of four of these critters for the same reason why I hate facing self-preservation teams with no offense in PvP - they're just there to drag the battle out with no hope of victory. If they keep following you around on a map, you won't exactly need a reminder that they're a pain in the neck, because that's where they'll constantly be. But that's just for PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by salja Wachi

first it was nerf ER it is too strong now that ER will not be nerfed they have moved on to smiting is too strong.

get a counter you lame brains :P

ER still is too strong, it's just that people get tired having to repeat it over and over only to get people without clue like you saying "ur stupid lol just counter it". No matter how many times the 'diversion/leech signet counters everything, does that make the entire game balanced?' question is raised, you keep putting this remark forward as your brilliant answer oblivious of how the question actually challenges its very validity in the first place.

Orbberius · Sep 13, 2005, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Ether Renewal is simply too strong. Players far better than me or you have offered very well-thought-out arguments as to why. I don't see how you can argue against this.

IxChel · Sep 13, 2005, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

Generally speaking, smiting is not that overpowered. Most smiting skills are even weak, if not useless. Duplicating the conditional "porcupine" aspect of Shield of Judgement or Retribution is a good idea. However I'm not sure you can base a whole attribute on this philosophy. Such "pay to attack" skills would be very similar to Empathy-like hexes.

Holy Wrath, in particular, should be an excellent skill -- but it is junk
due to the 10 energy cost and the very poor damage output it gives. I
hope in the next round of balancing, it gets a serious look. That said,
I disagree about your Balthazar's Aura assessment -- the equivalent AoE
fire elementalist skill isn't mobile and doesn't deal holy damage.

Odd Sock · Sep 13, 2005, 08:08 PM // 20:08

To the OP, your paragraph formating is insanely annoying.

Phades · Sep 13, 2005, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

In terms of damage, I think Balthazar's Aura is fine (now that 2 auras no longer stack), because once you remove the infinite energy engine, it is a good skill for damage per second & damage per energy. It also ignores armor which is priceless. In my opinion, the core of the problem is that similar skills from elementalists really are close to worthless (*cough* Searing Heat *cough*).

Considering it is like a 22 point aoe strength of honor, that doesnt require hits, id say its just a touch out of line. The fact that it ignores armor on top of that would really require it to be reeled back into the chaos storm realm of damage, for cross class balance. This is also considering that spell is phenominally better than any elementalist aoe, given the fact you just cant walk away from elementalist spells and balthazars lasts longer. It also recycles more often, like all other monk skills, but requires some decent energy management to keep it going, while elementalist skills get hamstringed on recast times and exhaustion on top of long cast times. There really is no comparison. Then there are the combination stackings with it and zealots, that push it up even higher, but we dont really have an arugement about that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

However, Zealot's Fire is indeed overpowered. You can deal more unconditional damage with this skill than you would with most if not all elementalist skills. The short recharge and low cost make it the best alternative to deal AoE fire damage. An example ? For 15e and 3s, you can use 3 monk spells, deal AoE 120 fire damage, and most importantly get tasty side effects from your monk skills. With the same 15e and 3s, you can do more or less the same amount of damage with fire skills, then you're screwed with stupid recharge times or exhaustion. Yay! Go, go, elementalist.

Actually its paired in 2.25s and 2.5 second delivery times, due to the recharge rate. For fire spells, in their current form, to even being to compare in efficiency and additional effects against their cast times and reuse times, would basically be calling for near instant death situations with team builds with 1-2 players involved in a single spell timeframe. This would assume that the current scheme for smiting is in line with everything else. Ele skills are overbalanced in virtually every instance, but its one of the few professions that are universally overbalanced. Of course, rather than nerf damage they could always overbalance monk skills with exhaustion everywhere as well and overprice several of them on top of that while beefing up the refresh times and tripling the cast times (or more in some cases). To be honest, it only seems like they really looked at the resurect spells and just kinda left the rest alone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

Oh, really? Guess why we're no longer discussing over ER?

Last time I heard from Alex Weekes, ER was 'examined for balance testing'. FYI, the same was said for weeks about Nature's Renewal.

Time will tell, but it does not excuse what the methods are used while using ether renewal. Energy without a purpose is just incompotent, as anyone under the effect of blackout or knockdown will say.